Evanston Jew Comments to XGH’s post – Where is the Orthodox response to the Documentary Hypothesis:
“… woe onto our generation when the laymen have a clearer moral and epistemic common sense than the rabbanim, a generation that needs bloggers to show what is happening. Children teaching parents, young preaching to old is both comical and a source of pain.
…As I argued a few days ago, emunah in this context means the hope that in the future there will be a relief and deliverance from our theological dilemmas from some source or other; maybe not in every last detail but at least in broad outlines. We hope for a change in perspectives no different in magnitude than the Enlightenment and Modernity that will help us see clearly why our history is so uncanny, why we survived these many years, and what was the point of accepting torah and mitzvot.
Maybe a new Hegelianism, like the chasidisher vort, acharei mos, kedoshim emor…after the death of simple faith via the skepticism of Hume and Kant speak of holiness, that which belongs to the Spirit, i.e. Hegel. Hopefully we will be zocheh to have a Rav Kook, for our generation. It is not totally mad to believe there are alternatives to the Enlightenment and Modernity. Perhaps some new version of post modernism, perhaps some deeper understanding of virtual realities and the role of avatars.
We need not end up in a religious dystopia, ruled by power hungry ayatollahs where like the Stepford Wives we become brainwashed robots. Nor must we end up in a world of anarchy where Jewish life is destroyed. Relief and deliverance will come to the Jews both materially and spiritually. This is part of emuna…”
EJ, no ideology ever collapsed because of the philosophical or textual inconsistencies. All ideologies fall because of a moral crisis sometimes helped by an economic upheaval. The Russian revolution and the atheism triumphed because people no longer believed that a religion had a moral voice. The collusion between the clergy (Jewish and Christian) and money power enraged people to the point of complete rejection of the belief. This “revolutionary situation” was as old as Jesus himself. It’s the moral failing of the traditional Judaism that Jesus railed about. Even when he pushed the money changers from the Beis Hamikdosh. Similar situation exists today. In the face of the collusion between the Rabbinic class and the oligarchy Judaism lost its moral high ground, if it ever had any. But that’s a different post now…
XGH concludes there:
“…The point of the previous post was this: the fact that Biblical Studies (DH etc) was able to ask all sorts of questions that hadn’t been asked before in the Jewish world, and the fact that it is able to point out new interpretations and theories (even some non kefiradick ones), to the point that even fundies like Gil sit up and take notice and need to respond (albeit very lamely), yet these are just ‘academics’ whereas we’ve been learning the Torah in depth for three thousand years, yet we don’t really have good alternative answers to any of this (except to say they’re all just biased), tells you something. What does it tell you? Some people commented it tells you that the frum world doesn’t really care about the DH, or is just ignorant. While of course that’s true, that wasn’t my point at all. What it tells you is that 3,000 years of learning Torah in depth will only produce bogus ‘peshatim‘ if your fundamentally assumptions (e.g. Kugels 4 assumptions*) are entirely flawed. And that Gil’s beliefs that the traditional meforshim (and Chazal etc) got it all (or mostly) right (and were Gedolei Mesorah and Torah) is clearly bunk – and we have clear proof of that – 3,000 years of study produces incorrect results because the fundamental assumptions were entirely wrong, and some outsiders can come in armed with nothing much more than some different assumptions, and turn everything on its head. That process alone speaks volumes. And I was going to make that point explicitly, but then I thought it would be funnier to do it in a kind of chareidi style satire…”
*James Kugel’s four Biblical assumptions of the traditional interpretation. The Bible is:
- Fundamentally cryptic.
- Eternally relevant.
- Internally harmonious.
- Divine in nature.
{ 3 comments… read them below or add one }
I did suggest that changes in how we describe the world and the rules of inference can relieve the skepticism about religion. You reply by saying metaphysical skepticism is never a problem. Only when the people believe that religion no longer has a moral voice, does a religion fail. We agree that both today and in the shtetl there was a collusion between the rabbis and the rich. But you add that the collusion itself, which may have been around for a very long time, is sufficient for Judaism to lose the moral high ground. It would seem to follow that Judaism has failed for some time.
I do recognize that Jews have been walking away from Judaism in large numbers since the 18th century. What we have today are the descendants of the true believers, and those who had vested interests in the system, the rabbinical class and their allies. A working class stiff emigrated from Europe a long time ago, and now owns a car dealership in Dayton, or maybe is the dog catcher in Ashdod and very anti religious.
The shearis hapleitah, those who remained loyal to the religion through the era of Hitler and Stalin are not and have not been ignorant of corruption within the rabbinic class. They were always making fun of rebbishe einikels who believed they were inherently deserving of support but had little to offer. I am not so sure this group is about to faIl and implode because of the new revelations about sexual misconduct or financial swindling. There is rage and disgust, but I don’t sense a full rebellion is in the air, even within the frum blogging community that is on top of every last outrage and scandal.
You might argue there is an internal emigration. Nothing to see on the outside, but moral corruption and lack of moral leadership is slowly taking its toll. I don’t exactly see this. Those who hated the way of life have left, and those who remain are a tough bunch.
When you read the anti Orthodox blogs and the accounts of formerly Orthodox people, moral corruption is not a major reason for leaving. I personally find all the strutting and fast lane competitive way of life difficult to take. But this sort of talk is heard more on a Pesach cruise in the Mediterranean than within the lonely ranks of those who left. There I hear yearning for community coming up against a deep quest for literal truth.
ej, we do agree on most points except the nuance. You are correct I am saying that Judaism is a moral failure.
To you “true believers” point, don’t discount the post traumatic Gulag and Holocaust reaction. Traditional and “modern” post Holocaust Jews from Poland and Hungary became extreme Gerrer or Satmar , etc.chasidm in Israel and US in search from an identity. Somewhat analogous metamorphosis happened to many of my post soviet friends.
In general just some ground rules on how I write. I stay away from predictions of any sort. I might say I hope this will happen or announce something as a wishful thinking or say that the same thing already happened in Russia when no one expected, etc., but I will never predict. Nobody knows.
So all I am saying that all revolutions followed a moral outrage, not philosophical revelations. Therefore this seems a proven path to change. But I don’t predict or anticipate the future.
P.S. The collusion that you and I know as historical fact is also the most unknown fact of Jewish history to most Jews today. They can hardly interpret what they clearly supposed to see in front of their eyes, let alone see the analogy with deliberately erased history.